Marek Wegrzyk is a guitarist and arranger living in Switzerland. Bergmann Edition publishes his innovative Bach arrangements – in this interview you will learn something of what sets them apart from other guitar arrangements of Bach, and you will find links to the arrangements and recordings. He is also a musicologist, teacher and recording artist. I had a long and fascinating video meeting with Marek. To get the most from this interview, please click on the links I have included.
Let’s start with a very brief outline of your musical development and career, including your recording history.
I started out as a performing guitarist.
I began studying guitar seriously around the age of 14 or 15. After my baccalaureate, I started university studies in musicology in Geneva. At the time I found the programme too focused on theory, so I took time out to go to New York for a year. I went to Manhattan School of Music, where I studied with Manuel Barrueco. It was during that period that I met contemporary composer Arthur Kampela. On my return, I attended a summer music festival in Ernen, Switzerland, where I encountered the great pianist and teacher György Sebök. Both have been very influential in my life and career [later in the interview we will hear more of both of them].
I also finished my musicology degree, then started a master’s in performance at Lausanne with Dagoberto Linhares. After my master’s came teaching, giving concerts, and performing with Contrechamps, a contemporary music ensemble.
I’ve recorded three CDs – one of varied repertoire and two of my own Bach transcriptions.
Your output as a recording artist includes classical and romantic, plus contemporary and Celtic – so obviously you have a wide range of musical interests. But is baroque your first love?
Baroque music, or more specifically Bach, is one of three important poles in my musical world: the others are contemporary avant-garde composer Arthur Kampela and flamenco guitarist Paco de Lucia.
Yes, I read in your biography that the subject of your dissertation in your musicology degree was Paco de Lucia, and I thought it couldn’t have been much further from Bach – can you tell us a little about your interest in him, and your current work in teaching the fundamentals of flamenco?
My first teacher, Emma Martinez, introduced me to the music of Paco de Lucia and I was completely blown away. I have made a lot of transcriptions of his pieces, which represent the creative essence of Spanish music. In the same way as I see Bach as the reference point for baroque music, I see Paco de Lucia as the reference point for flamenco. Yes, I teach its fundamentals: but I don’t claim to teach the depths of the subject. I am interested mainly in the solo guitar aspects and the techniques involved. Paco de Lucia revolutionised guitar playing in all its aspects, and he continues to inspire me day after day.
Earlier you mentioned György Sebök as a major influence. Can you tell us something about him and how he influenced you?
When I was in the USA, he was teaching in Bloomington Indiana where I first saw him in his famous public lessons for his students. He was an incredible pianist and teacher. To me he was music personified. He could play practically the entire piano and chamber music repertoire from Bach to Bartók. His communicative skills were unparalleled. Listening to him gave me shivers, both hearing the great repertoire and seeing how he developed students. He taught them to respect the text, respect the composer, and set the ego aside. He had wonderful insights. As just one example, he talked about phrasing: he said if you can play a phrase only one way, you have no choice; if you can play it two ways, you have a dilemma; but if you can play it three ways you begin to have freedom.
He conducted masterclasses at a summer festival in Switzerland. I kept going back – from 1991 till 1999, as a participant and listener. They deeply affected the way I interpret and perform music.
[interviewer’s note – fortunately there is video from a number of these masterclasses: see for example https://youtu.be/RhUNzzO8krQ?si=hkP1CCxHzpLRgjLT ]
His influence also triggered my interest in transcribing Bach. He used to explain how, after the horrors of the second world war, he had lost the ability to feel emotion from music: he appreciated its beauty, but it didn’t arouse an emotional response. Then, reading Busoni’s piano transcription of Bach’s organ toccata in C major, he played the Adagio and felt that emotion begin to return. When you heard him play this piece, you could not help feeling the emotion yourself.
[Readers can experience this themselves with the following clip of Sebök both recounting the story and playing the piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h427L7297xM ]
I became obsessed by the idea of transcribing the piece for guitar. But I was apprehensive that I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. It was some years before I attempted it, working from the original for organ and the Busoni arrangement. My arrangement worked well – I think I managed to adapt and scale the piece down to the guitar without deforming it. This early success gave me the feeling – perhaps a little naïve – that it was possible for me to arrange Bach’s music convincingly for the guitar. That started me on my current path.
Tell us a little about Ricardo Lopes Garcia and your association with him. How did the collaboration come about? How do you work together?
Ricardo was my second guitar teacher in Geneva. He is my best friend and a wonderful musician. I’ve known him for 40 years and we often visit each other or call. It was Ricardo who first started to discover the benefits of alternative tunings (‘scordatura’) for transcribing Bach, which we’ll be talking about in more detail.
Now that you’ve raised the subject, let’s talk more about your work with scordatura. Can you give us an explanation of the tuning(s) you use, and tell us what is the main principle behind using scordatura specifically for the music of Bach?
If you think about the guitar repertoire, it mainly favours keys where the guitarist can get the full benefit of open strings, particularly in the bass. So E, A and D in their major and minor modalities, and the relative minors of the major keys, prevail. You don’t find a lot of guitar music in, say, E flat because there are few open strings available in this key.
In the 19th century guitarist/composers such as Tárrega and Llobet started using the commonest form of scordatura, dropping the bass E to D to obtain deep rich harmonies in related keys. Tárrega subsequently introduced a tuning where the bass E and A are dropped to D and G respectively, supporting the keys of G major and minor. Later, in the mid-20th century, with a revival of interest in renaissance lute and vihuela music, a new scordatura sometimes called ‘lute tuning’ appeared – while the other five strings remained in standard tuning, the third string, G, was dropped a semitone to F sharp to emulate the tuning of a renaissance lute.
The main scordatura Ricardo and I have used pushes this one step further. The third string, G, drops to F sharp; the fourth string, D, drops to C sharp. In certain cases, the bass E also drops to D.
Ricardo has more recently experimented with a new tuning, (from bass to treble) F Sharp (or E), A, C sharp, F sharp, A, C sharp, which emulates the tuning of a baroque lute. You can hear how effective it sounds in his recording of the last movement of the second Sonata for violin: https://youtu.be/H7pMlqhCBNs?si=Qsq5eRCrVyBQs11R
I always loved listening to the music of Bach, but for a guitarist Bach is often awkward and unnatural to play. The first step in our discovery was Ricardo’s arrangement of the third Violin Sonata in which he had, through experimentation, adopted the scordatura with third and fourth strings detuned as mentioned above. I was impressed by its playability: the detuning provided ease of fingering and freed up fluidity. However, it took me a long time to realise the potential of this innovation. This was partly because I had assumed it worked just for this specific piece. And it was partly because Ricardo gave me his score in handwritten manuscript without fingerings, so reading it was particularly awkward.
Some time later I was looking for some pieces for my students and I came across an arrangement of the Cello Suite BWV 1007, transcribed in A major instead of the usual D major. At first, I was intrigued; but I lost interest because of the laborious fingering. Before giving up on it altogether, I thought why not try Ricardo’s tuning, as it’s in the same key as the piece he gave me. And suddenly everything fell magically into place like an alignment of the planets! Everything was right – the register, tone, facility and fluency of playing. I was an instant convert.
So why? Why should these small changes in tuning make such a huge difference?
I don’t know why this scordatura works: we arrived at it by experimentation. All I know is that when it does work, it makes a massive and beneficial difference, on a practical level.
Normally in Bach transcriptions for guitar, you are having to make all sorts of unnatural contortions with the left hand: the music just doesn’t fit the mechanics of the instrument, and the hand is often over-extended. With the third string at F sharp and the fourth at C sharp, you don’t use the fourth finger quite so much. There is less stretching and everything falls conveniently under your hands.
Bach wrote very much for the characteristics of a particular instrument, to take full advantage of its natural range and resonances. In, say, a guitar transcription of a Cello Suite, the scordatura and the choice of the key mimic the mechanics of playing the piece much more naturally than normal guitar tuning. It creates similar possibilities, using the natural resonance of the instrument and creating strong harmonics. This is particularly noticeable in first position, and the scordatura allows far more of the piece to be played in this position, without stretches and with a vast improvement in accessibility.
Even Bach himself used scordatura when he felt it was necessary for achieving the harmony he was seeking – in the fifth Cello Suite, for example he used an alternative tuning CGDG which allowed four-note harmony where it was required (among other advantages).
The revelation for me was that it worked for other pieces and wasn’t just a ‘freak’ occurrence for the third Violin Sonata. We now have six major arrangements, and experience of making these transcriptions has reassured us that it is not simply accidental. To be frank, I don’t care so much about the theory of why it works: the important thing is that, in certain cases, it does.
So, to my mind it is a ‘magic key’, but not a universal one. The piece has to be in a suitable tonality. There are always limitations to what can be achieved. Some of Bach’s music simply doesn’t translate into guitar idiom. For example, the so-called lute suites were not really written for lute, but for lautenwerck (a small keyboard that emulates the sonority of a lute - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautenwerck ). I am afraid I hold quite an unpopular opinion about the capacity of the guitar to do justice to some of Bach’s masterpieces played by generations of guitarists. Prelude, Fugue and Allegro is a perfect example - it was only when I heard the monumental version of Sviatoslav Richter that I understood why. [You can find this recording here: https://youtu.be/vvr64PRMiW0?si=kzY36gt0oc1AmzT- ]
How do you write scores with detuning? Do you notate the actual notes played? If so, how much additional fingering and instruction do you include for the performer? I read once that Heinrich Biber wrote his scores for scordatura violin as if the violin were normally tuned, so that the player could sight-read it. Therefore, the music comes out quite differently from the notation. Have you considered solutions like this, or tablature?
I always notate the notes actually played – I could not imagine using the solution you mention, that was used by Biber. One can sight-read in scordatura if the scores are presented properly.
I’ve also experimented with presenting the notation across two staves for clarity and to show voice leading. I may consider for future scores using tablature.
Fingerings are vitally important. The fingering is part of the interpretation of a piece. My approach comes a little from my other work, with the avant-garde music of Arthur Kampela. Kampela composes in a natural, ergonomic way, dividing the work between the hands so that even the most complex textures become possible and idiomatic. His music can’t be read properly without right- and left-hand fingering for each note. I came to realise that a similar approach with the Bach arrangements would make the scores much more readable because the player is not constantly searching for the fret position of a note on one of the detuned strings. So in the Bergmann Edition arrangements each note is fingered for left hand, and right-hand fingering is included where useful. I believe this makes the scores very accessible.
[Readers can try for themselves – if you click on the scores at https://bergmann-edition.com/collections/wegrzyk-marek you will find some sample extracts. The interviewer has tried them and found them surprisingly easy and comfortable to play]
If you’re arranging a piece or series of pieces, how do you choose the material in the first place? And how do you approach the task – what are your first steps? How much are you applying musicology to the task?
As to choosing the material, Ricardo and I are working our way through the solo music of Bach for solo stringed instruments. We are finding out by trial and error which ones can be played more easily in alternative tunings. Not all of them can – for example, my arrangement of the second Violin Partita is in standard tuning.
The approach is first to engage in exhaustive research. My initial step is intensive academic or musicological study of the original manuscripts and printed scores. In some cases, I study other arrangements that have been made subsequent to Bach – for example, for the Chaconne from the second Violin Partita I studied very carefully the Brahms arrangement for piano left hand. But the main source is always the originals – the manuscripts if possible, and the printed scores closest to them.
Actually, it took me a long time to free myself from the traditional way of playing Bach on the guitar. When you hear errors repeated a good many times, they become a tradition, and it is quite complicated to separate the wheat from the chaff. As Toscanini rather bluntly put it, all tradition is the bad music-making of yesterday. So, I try to put out of my mind all the other guitar arrangements of Bach I have heard.
In order to have Bach’s language in my head, I listen to everything I can find. The complete recordings of Bach’s keyboard works by Andràs Schiff are a wonderful preparation.
There is an early check with guitar in hand to determine what the most suitable register and tonal key will be. It is sometimes necessary to transpose from the original key: the guitar is in a different register from, say, the cello. For example, the cello can achieve certain sonorities and resonances in a particular key whereas transposing to another key may be the only way to achieve comparable resonances on the guitar (making use of open strings and sympathetic vibration or natural harmonics).
But the actual transcription work is mainly done on paper. Then comes making the practical, playable arrangement, for which I work with the instrument in hand, approaching it as a player. At that point I add comprehensive fingering for both hands. I don’t often make concessions – the arrangement has to be accurate and can’t be dictated by the ease of playing.
There is a huge amount of collaboration between Ricardo and me on each of these scores. His collaboration is priceless – we share the same aesthetic. Some things we still disagree on, so there is a lot of negotiation and adapting and changing on the way. Ricardo doesn’t publish scores under his own name. But the next one, the first Violin Sonata, I would like to publish in my Bergmann Edition collection under Ricardo’s name.
The process is long and painstaking. From initial research to final arrangement of one of the cello suites can be two to five years.
With certain Bach pieces, it’s become accepted that a violin or cello score should be augmented with the addition of harmonies. How do you go about this, particularly for a composer like Bach whose harmonic decisions are so often brilliantly unexpected?
First of all, I want to avoid doing anything Bach himself wouldn’t have done. I try to keep in mind what Ralph Kirkpatrick once said: “If you play Bach and it sounds like something else…play something else”. Bach re-adapted a number of his own pieces for instruments other than the one they were originally written for. Look for example at the second Violin Sonata, which he transcribed himself for keyboard. Or the fifth Cello Suite, which he re-worked for the lautenwerck.
Sometimes Bach rewrote a whole piece, so that it better suited the musical properties and character of the new instrument. In other cases, he would make only minor changes and adaptations. Agricola, one of Bach’s students, tells us that when adapting a piece to another instrument Bach would add ‘as many harmonies as necessary’. The ‘as necessary’ is important to me. My approach is to avoid adding anything that is not vital to achieve a musical purpose.
I have as far as possible tried to absorb Bach’s instrumental language. But I remain conscious of the advice of Sebök – “knowing is not understanding”. It is all about coming as close to Bach as possible, and some of the solutions I have found are intuitive and instinctive. Sometimes I will make a lot of changes. I feel confident in doing so because I know Bach wouldn’t have left it exactly the same. Most changes I make I can trace back to a ‘reharmonisation’ or other composition of Bach.
For my arrangement of the second Violin Partita, which has just been published, I made organic changes from the violin score. The objective of the changes is to make the piece sound as if it had been written originally for the guitar. Using the natural resonance of the guitar is important: it avoids adding unnecessary or redundant bass notes.
What technology do you use? Or do you write the score by hand?
I use Finale. Ricardo handwrites everything.
Who do you write your arrangements for? Are they primarily for performing musicians/professional level? Do you know whether other guitarists are playing them currently?
Some students are trying these arrangements, and I’ve had people writing to me who have tried the scores or seen my work on YouTube. Reaction has been very positive and there has been a great deal of interest. It has mostly so far come from amateur players, with just one or two professionals. I really want to generate more interest in this work and see the arrangements more widely adopted and performed in concert. I am convinced many artists would find them a revelation and enjoy the greater naturalness and fluidity that the scordatura brings.
If scordatura works for Bach, why not for transcriptions of other composers? What are your thoughts about arranging pieces by composers other than Bach?
It might work I have not tried. You must remember that transcribing a Bach suite can, as I have mentioned, take years of work. I have focused on Bach and have not had time to try any other composers’ work. I would certainly see Scarlatti as a likely candidate.
What have you been working on most recently, and what is next?
The second Violin Partita is complete and has recently been published (including my new arrangement of the famous Chaconne). The second and third Cello Suites are already recorded and will be published by Bergmann Edition soon.
You’ve made some extremely high-quality recordings of the Bach transcriptions – tell us something about the recording process.
My first recording was a CD (“Fragments”) [view, purchase and listen to extracts here: https://www.marekwegrzyk.com/?page=discography&details_CD=all ]. I made the recording with a legendary sound engineer, Jean-Claude Gaberel. [A look at Gaberel’s discography https://www.discogs.com/artist/805787-Jean-Claude-Gaberel will show the calibre of artists he has recorded]. I went to see him, we got on well, and he agreed to record a CD with me. This recording reflected my repertoire at the end of my studies. It included some romantic and classical pieces; Bach’s Chaconne from the second Violin Partita; and a premier of Percussion Study n°1 by Kampela.
15 years later I contacted Jean-Claude again, because I wanted to record the Bach arrangements I’d been working on. Jean-Claude worked with me on two CDs, ‘Bach - transcriptions’ and ‘Bach’. [view, purchase and listen to extracts here: https://www.marekwegrzyk.com/?page=discography&details_CD=all ]
The first contains my arrangement of the first Cello Suite, BWV 1007; the third Cello Suite BWV 1009; the third Violin Sonata BWV 1005; and the Adagio from Organ Toccata BWV 564.
The second contains the second Cello Suite, BWV 1008; Prelude BWV 855a, originally for clavier; and the first Violin Partita BWV 1002.
The albums were recorded in a chapel and in Espace Consonance, a studio in Saxon. The sound is beautiful. I was lucky in my relationship with Jean-Claude: we like to work with the same people, and he does a wonderful job. He truly understands the sound of the guitar and its acoustics.
Now, I wouldn’t record CDs: too few people listen to music that way these days and generally one doesn’t sell many physical CDs. I want to record the second Violin Partita, but I will do it only as a digital release for streaming platforms.
How did your collaboration with Bergmann Edition come about?
I started publishing with Bergmann Edition two or three years ago. I had sent scores and ideas to other publishers, but Allan Bergmann was the one who immediately recognised the potential and interest of these scores, which shows that Bergmann Edition isn’t primarily driven by profit motives. A week after, we signed a contract and I’m very happy to be part of this new adventure.
At this stage in your career, would you describe yourself primarily as an arranger or performer?
Nowadays I teach a lot, having a full-time job at the Conservatoire Populaire de Musique, Danse et Théâtre in Geneva, and I record a lot, but I don’t perform. If I am invited to perform I will, but these days I am not principally a performer. I have given two conferences, playing examples of my arrangements. But overall, I’d see myself first and foremost as an arranger, and as a teacher.
Marek, this interview has been all about your work on Bach, but it seems like there is a whole area of your work and musical life that would take another interview to cover: contemporary music and your work on the music of Arthur Kampela.
I have always thought I needed a musical anchor to the contemporary world. I found it through Arthur’s music. I still remember the shock of the sheer electric power that went through my body the first time I heard it. I have been following his creative path for over thirty years now, trying to play and record some of his pieces, the latest being Microstudy no. 3, a short piece which questions our perceptions of sound, noise, percussive effects, voice and silence, combining them all in an irrepressible flow of energy. All these elements of a new musical language cohabit in a gesturality where the two hands discover the links between them in a fascinating and innovative syntax.
You asked me earlier about my interests in music being so diverse. I’d like to answer you with yet another inspiring quote that encapsulates the links between them. Even though it could be attributed to Arthur, who would certainly agree with it, it is actually from Sebök, which shows how close apparently different musical worlds can be:
“Music is a kind of projection of the physical world in a crystallised form – it turns, it advances, it has attractions and gravity, and has all its physical laws. And all this is organised in relation to some higher order.”
Thank you, Marek, for a highly thoughtful and thought-provoking interview.